Matt Mckenney: Thank you both, Sabrina and Hayden, for being here and taking the time today. I’m looking forward to our conversation. Before we get started, do you both mind doing quick introductions?
Hayden Springer: Sure. Hi, I’m Hayden Springer. I’m with the James Irvine Foundation. I’m a Program Officer Grantmaker with the Better Careers Initiative, and I support our Registered Apprenticeship grantmaking.
Matt: Thank you for being here. Sabrina.
Sabrina Kansara: Hi, I’m Sabrina Singh Kansara. I’m a Senior Program Officer at the James Irvine Foundation, and been here for about seven years supporting apprenticeship in different ways as part of our Better Careers Initiative.
Matt: Thank you. So to start, the foundation has been a leader in California workforce innovation. You’ve invested in apprenticeship expansion, and it’s helped shape how the field thinks about scale, equity, and sustainability. When you think about the foundation’s investment in expanding apprenticeships across California, what do you hope to see? And maybe we should look at the next year, five, ten years.
Sabrina: Great. Well, I will say I’m going to share in the weeds and then longer-term hopes. I think that most importantly, we want to see more Californians, especially women, people of color, and individuals filled by multiple systems, having real access to quality careers, quality careers that provide family-sustaining wages, a real sense of belonging in their workplace, so that individuals can also have the ability to really progress in their careers. And we know that Registered Apprenticeship can do that. It can have that impact. It’s access to paid training and learning on the job. It meets the employers’ hiring needs. There’s progressive wage gains built in. And often these programs really ensure folks can have training and education without debt. And we know that this model can have the type of impact you want, but it has to be really structured well with supportive services, mentorship, and access so folks know that these training opportunities exist. The other thing we know is to grow apprenticeship, we need to have more apprenticeships in really new and emerging industries. And we really need a strong network of both regional and industry-specific apprenticeship intermediaries that are helping bring together the employers, trade partners, community-based organizations, and apprentices to really launch and sustain high-quality apprenticeships. Another thing we need more of in the state is strong employer engagement. And really, what we want by that is employers that are really helping drive the apprenticeship adoption. Ideally, we want more coordination and collaboration with employers at the regional level so that they’re coming together, really sharing their challenges, opportunities, what their hiring needs are, and so that we make sure we’re connecting to those so really strong apprenticeship intermediaries can help them with the training, with the outreach – to plug in an employer.
On the kind of more long-term, we’re looking for this field to be much stronger in the state. We want really diverse partners involved that are more collaborating and less siloed in individual programmatic efforts. We’re really looking to see how can our funding ensure that partners are playing together, working together with the employers, with intermediaries, with the community-based organizations, so we can actually increase the number of apprenticeships that are up and running so that more Californians can have access to quality jobs. So we really need to see the adoption of apprenticeship. We want to see it grow in the state. We want more Californians to easily connect to apprenticeship. We want more employers to understand it and see it as a real solution to their hiring and retention needs. And then we also want to see a lot of policy changes happening. We want a really smooth, efficient registration process. We want to see increased, diverse, flexible funding from state, federal philanthropy so that we can really grow and sustain the model. And we want it to be just less siloed. It shouldn’t be “either you do education, or you do training.” We want it to be combined. We want folks to understand that apprenticeship, honestly, is a mainstream solution, right? A mainstream solution for folks looking for jobs or progressing in their careers, for employers that are meeting higher needs and to have a stronger kind of community and economic development. We want to see it being mainstream beyond just thinking of apprenticeship as someone who’s in the trades. While that’s great and we want that to grow, we want to see it growing in advanced manufacturing, healthcare, teacher apprenticeships. So that’s really what we want to see.
Matt: Great. Thank you so much. And it’s a really thoughtful response. So engagement across an ecosystem and thinking regionally can be really powerful as it relates to apprenticeship. And you mentioned this, like we now see – or are starting to see apprenticeships across healthcare, IT, education, advanced manufacturing, even public sector roles.
Why do you think or what do you think makes apprenticeships such a valuable strategy across these different industries, especially in a state like California?
Sabrina: Yeah. So I think that we really see apprenticeship is this employer-driven training model, right? Employers are driving and should be setting the curriculum and it’s really meeting their occupation needs. So it can be really, really responsive to evolving talent needs by very different industries. At the same time, one thing that’s unique and why it’s valuable, we see is that it’s a uniform model in that you see what the clear roles are from an apprentice and an employer and what they need to meet those roles and responsibilities for it to be successful. Across different industries, you also see a return on investment. And I’m not talking about a quantitative number, to be totally transparent. We’re trying to actually fund some work in that space to see more of what the quantitative and qualitative impacts are. But what we do know anecdotally from employers we hear from, from grantee partners, is that there is a return on investment across different industries when it comes to hiring, retention of employees over time and growing a diverse talent base. And that last piece I’ll say is really important because we know that when we have a more diverse workplace, that that’s good for business. And we know that we can’t have that more diverse talent base unless folks are getting paid for training and that they’re seeing those progressive wage gains, they’re getting the mentorship they need in this longer-term training model. The last thing I’ll say too is that, and this is one thing that our grantee partner has shared with us and of course, this makes sense. Right now, AI is being integrated in a lot of different industries. And so one thing that’s really interesting when we think about it is this apprenticeship model really makes sure that apprentices are getting real time on the job training that’s meeting the moment so that they’re actually learning new technologies in the moment in their training. And that’s going to make their job more efficient. It’s going to make sure that employers are being able to use AI in the ways that make sense and that folks are getting trained in those different technologies in the moment and get to really get the skills that employers need and develop them in real time.
And then the last thing I’ll say, this might be my real last thing, is that one reason that we think that it can work in all these different industries well is because of a partnership. You know, we at Irvine are funding apprenticeship intermediaries and we see that these intermediaries and sponsors can really often reduce the administrative burdens that makes it easier for employers to buy into the model. Right? Sponsors and intermediaries can often handle some of the registration process, you know, making sure the apprentice gets all the support services that they need, the reporting that’s required for a Registered Apprenticeship, because we believe in Registered Apprenticeship. And so that’s another way that different industries can really engage with it is working with partners like apprenticeship intermediaries.
Matt: Yeah, so great, great thoughts and thank you for sharing them. One of the things that you brought up is the investments that you make in different areas of apprenticeship. I really appreciate Irvine Foundation’s holistic approach and thinking through this is not, you know, just one area, one partner. Did you want to spend a minute talking a little bit about some of the strategies that you’ve invested specifically in, partners that you might like to highlight or work that you’re currently doing that you think is going to make an impact? Because I do think it’s incredibly important to highlight the fact that you’ve thought across the continuum from studying the impact to investing in intermediaries to providing opportunities or encouraging employer partners to come to the tables. So if you wanted to take a moment to share, I think it’d be great for the audience to hear.
Haden: I can take a take a crack at it and I’ll take it from the lens of being fairly new to the apprenticeship space. I’ve been in workforce development and different roles for a long time, but when I came to Irvine three years ago, it was, and I’m still learning every day, but one of the things that Irvine and the Better Careers Initiative made a conscious choice around when it had its transition from its first seven years of funding into where we are now in a new seven-year block of funding that’s halfway through at this point was to focus on funding apprenticeship intermediary organizations primarily. And I think that was a reflection on the fact that in these new and innovative sectors, there really does have to be a strong infrastructure behind programs to ensure that you are building a full system that doesn’t create multiple programs that serve the same purpose, but really create something where folks can plug in and be supported from the policy down to the program level and seeing that intermediaries, they’re not the panacea, but they play a critical role in making this happen. And so I think that again, being new to it and seeing what that role looks like, seeing different organizations test it out, and some realize like this definition of intermediary is actually not what I’m best set up to do in others, and they find what they can plug in and contribute to and lean into that. It’s been fascinating seeing different models kind of unfold and different organizations contribute in different ways. And I think that some funders want to focus on funding the program only. And I think you really also have to recognize that we have to build up the organizations that are doing the unattractive, probably boring work to some to make these programs happen and for folks, both the apprenticeship apprentices and businesses, for the economic outcome to yield. And so that has been a privilege to get to be a part of. It’s a different lens on how to support the growth and expansion of Registered Apprenticeship and access, especially for those that have not been served well or have been historically harmed by other systems of education that are typically thought of as the path. And so I just want to share that aspect of how we think about the funding where we have decided to provide support and just what the learning is from that and just the critical need.
Matt: Yeah. Oftentimes from an employer perspective, too, when you’re thinking about talent, right, and you’re recruiting for new roles, you start with a funnel at the top, right? And you try to work your way down to this select few candidates. What we’ve historically found with apprenticeship and we love about it is it gives employers confidence to make that funnel wider at the top, right? It captures more people because you have confidence in the framework to develop talent to get to that select few that can serve the needs of your organization. And by strengthening that pipeline, increasing the size of the funnel and bringing in more people, it creates access.
One of the things, and I’m glad you shared this in your answer, the Irvine Foundation was one of the first organizations to think thoughtfully about long-term strategies. So when you talk about seven years, that’s a new thing in workforce development investment to think through. We’ve got some partners that have some needs, they do have some infrastructure – or staff and development that need to be sustained. So making that long-term investment, what drove you to do that? And how has that been to work in that space? Because that was a risk. That was amazing that you all thought to do that.
Sabrina: We can’t take credit of that, to be totally transparent. So the one way I really appreciate that Irvine funds is we have different initiatives and the funding window for every initiative is seven years. And the reason behind that, yeah, it’s not just our Better Careers Initiative, it’s our Fair Work, our Private Communities. And so the reason behind that, I’ve seen that be really powerful is that we know that change takes time, right? Especially in apprenticeship, right? Apprenticeship is already a long program and the changes that are needed, the advocacy, it takes time. And so we really try to support our grantee partners through seven years, because we know that apprenticeship takes funding. It takes time to grow. And we want to see our grantee partners really get to succeed over a longer period of time, especially with a longer training model. And I think, especially for apprenticeship intermediaries, in our first seven years, we funded a bunch of different individual programs, which was great. But we realized we’ll never have enough funding to fund all the individual programs. And a couple of years ago, the apprenticeship intermediary space in California was strong, but not as big and strong as it is now. And so we wanted to think about our funding of what can we experiment and try to fund different partners in specific regions, industries that are newer to apprenticeship to try to see what happens when we are able to try to fund these newer programs or newer intermediaries. So the only other thing I’ll say on the funding front is that, as Hayden mentioned, we’re funding these apprenticeship intermediaries, but we’re also fortunate that we have some funding that’s also to really think about expansively – what does collaboration look like between partners? So what does it look like to have a community of practice for our partners? Because this work is really hard, and it’s really helpful to listen to and learn from each other as grantee partners in this space as apprenticeship intermediaries.
And then I think, too, we try to do some flexible funding when it comes to – and a lot of philanthropy is doing this now. We’re not funding a program. We try to provide like the more general operating support funds, because it’s so hard for apprenticeship programs to have flexible funding, because government funding often is not flexible. So they need funding for things like that are not as sexy, like having partners meet together and having to travel for meetings or whatever it might be.
Matt: It’s a great answer, and I maybe expand on it a little. So you talked about the importance of philanthropy or philanthropic investments. Why is it important for philanthropy to invest in apprenticeships, especially as the system seems to still be evolving, right? Like this is something that we’re building in California, but I think nationally. But as it relates to you and maybe peer organizations thinking through investments, why do you see this is so important and critical?
Haden: Yeah, I can jump in here. I think one of the things that folks, including our board and leadership, get excited about is you do see consistent, strong bipartisan support for apprenticeship that has withstood significant political winds changing. And we know and believe that that support has to be coupled with adequate funding, more funding, and consistent predictable funding, both at the federal and state level. And we also know that the funding that exists now isn’t flexible enough. So that’s really a place where philanthropy can come in. And I think when we think about what can philanthropic funding do, we know it can provide flexibility to do that kind of testing and validation of different approaches to standing programs up, figuring out how to sustainably operate them, and scale. And we haven’t talked about it, but also like how we maintain the quality of Registered Apprenticeship over time as it grows.
Another thing that’s been really important for us, and you mentioned it, Matt, early on, is if designed right, Registered Apprenticeship programs can create access to quality career pathways and quality jobs, especially for folks that just have not had access or have been underrepresented generally in education and in Registered Apprenticeship. So one of the things that we believe is really important and is part of our funding is ensuring that programs are designed to incorporate supportive services like access to child care, transportation assistance, other things that are critical to ensuring that individuals that do have different needs can get access, but also be successful to and through programs. So that’s something that flexible funding can support.
And then Sabrina mentioned this, but this is a growing field, particularly outside construction and firefighting. So being able to use some flexible dollars to ensure that organizations doing this work can get access and ready access to tailored technical assistance, to build relationships and learn from each other is something that we’re fortunate enough to be able to do. And that’s just going to be, I think, a critical ongoing need to really build the field, especially in these new and innovative industries.
So that’s what I would offer there.
Matt: It’s been a privilege to work alongside the Irvine Foundation on several of your projects. But if you think about the opportunities that apprenticeship creates locally, sometimes, in fact, I would argue that you create opportunities to create better or ideal talent for roles like community health workers or educators in a community. Because when you can develop people from a community that understand the community and they end up in roles where they need to serve the community, that’s a best case scenario. And oftentimes the system isn’t creating that type of talent. So there’s an opportunity to ignite some of those on-ramps and that talent and have people think differently about the ways that they even work or engage with their community.
So, last question, I want to close us out. Again, we appreciate the partnership and the privilege of the work that we get to do alongside the Irvine Foundation. But as you work with JobForward and other intermediaries like us, what has changed about your work? How have you thought about it differently? What have you seen as benefits? This can be a pro-con list if you want. So if there’s things that you’ve learned, too, that we could do better, you’re welcome to share those too. But it’d be great to hear your thoughts on that.
Haden: I can offer a couple and then, Sabrina, maybe if you want to bring us home, that’d be great.
I am looking at it from just reflecting on what’s changed amongst our grantees that I’ve seen engaged with the team at JobForward. And I think one of them, especially among organizations that are newer to playing the role of apprenticeship intermediary, is just their ability to comprehend and navigate the complexities between federal policy regulation and process, as well as state, and how you navigate those two at the same time. Having partnership with JobForward to be thought partners and also just help develop their own thinking and process has been really valuable and important. I think it’s no secret that employer engagement is really hard, particularly in our current environment. So folks, you can see people building up that ability to kind of code switch as they need to between the internal mechanics of apprenticeship and how they’re engaging with employers. It’s very different and exciting and important.
And then I think something that’s just been really great is, again, for organizations that are newer to the work, is to have a technical assistance provider, a coach that they can go to without judgment of, like, you’re doing it wrong or just that kind of feeling. Like just having an accessible, supportive team that can answer questions and is coming at it with a lot of grace and partnership has been really wonderful. And we certainly thank you all for that. And I know that our grantees are deeply appreciative of it too.
Matt: Appreciate that for sure. Yeah.
Sabrina: The only thing I’ll add is, I think, and then Hayden, you mentioned this, is I think it’s really important for folks to have a space where they’re being met where they are. And every grantee partner is in a different place and space on their journey of being an intermediary. And so, having you all come in and do an individualized plan to help support them with different needs is really critical. And I will say so many of our grantee partners say to us we’re so grateful to get that from you all. So, as Hayden said, thank you for that.
Matt: I can’t thank you both enough for your time today. It’s been a great conversation.